Did Senna Really Want to Leave F1 for IndyCar?

"Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V)" (gaborvajda) 03/22/2014 at 14:09 • Filed to: Senna, ayrton senna, f1, formula 1, formula one, indycar, cart, penske, mclaren, marlboro, nigel mansell, tony stewart, lewis hamilton

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...or indeed he was just bluffing?

In the wake of today's Jalopnik !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! (to much of my surprise) on IndyCar and Long Beach and because yesterday was !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , I started pondering about whether the legendary race driver did - in fact - want to quit Formula 1 for American open-wheel racing.

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Saying today that e.g. Sebastian Vettel would join IndyCar from 2015 - for being dissatisfied with the Red Bull car - would be quite senseless for a number of reasons, but particularly because

F1 is a World Championship

on a global level IndyCar is invisible

really, why?

Ayrton Senna was, though, in a very similar situation in 1992. The McLaren wasn't a world-beater any more. That isn't saying it was a bad car, but the then-top Williams team tackled active suspension system much better than anyone else, paired with a fine chassis and one of the best engines at the time.

Simply speaking, Ayrton's argument was that he wasn't able to win championships against that car.

But did he really mean it?

Going back to the early 90s, it has to be noted that CART then was massive. At the time it was battling with F1 in success. A champion in CART would be as much known as a World Champion, especially if it was Senna (see Nigel Mansell for 1993).

His said adventure in 1992 was no more than a quick test at a short course with an old chassis Penske and somewhat dodgy tyres in the dusty bowl, nevertheless he !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and walked off. Most likely it was a publicity stunt for McLaren and Penske's mutual sponsor, Marlboro (also see: Tony Stewart vs. Lewis Hamilton at The Glen).

Was he perhaps running for success by all means, so much, that he was ready to give up the top category for the second best thing if it meant winning? Remember, he was three-time and reigning World Champion at the time.

If he joined CART, what would have been the impact to the respective racing series?

Or in reality it just was - for him - what it really was: a publicity stunt where he felt he could learn a thing or two.

What's your take on this?

BlazinAce - Doctor of Internal Combustion > Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) 03/22/2014 at 14:46

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It's possible... CART was pretty big back then, and Emmerson's campaign in America motivated lots of brazilian drivers at the time to look north instead of east, to Europe and Formula One, but, as he stated himself in the video, his test with Penske didn't really mean he had decided on it over F1. He mentions F1, as a whole, having some issues with new rules and regulations, probably over the electronic aids, and that he accepted Emmerson's invitation to go to Phoenix and play a little with the car. Ultimately, I think Ayrton would have gone to where the best drivers were, kind of like how he focused completely on Prost when he was the man to beat.

f86sabre > Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) 03/22/2014 at 17:01

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In the early 90s Indycar was pretty much the best racing series in the world. No joke. Great cars, lots of power, a good mix of tracks, good TV package and there was money in the series. It was nothing like it is now. There were also great drivers. Rahal, the Andrettis, Foyt, Sullivan, Unser, Cheever, Tracyk and Mears. Not a bad roster. Also, remember Rahal worked with Newey and I bet they talked about it.

f86sabre > f86sabre 03/22/2014 at 17:02

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Christopher Tarhan > Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) 03/23/2014 at 00:45

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I find the whole Indycar F1 debate ridiculously frustrating. First I am an open wheel fan, second, believe it or not I prefer Indycar and I'm not new to the block. Im not the oldest follower but I was born in the 80's and I've been following the Indy 500 since I could comprehend what was going on. I have a couple of problems with this post.

"F1 is a Wolrd Championship

on a global level IndyCar is invisible

really, why?"

This is so arrogant. I grew up in a family of racers. I myself do a lot of karting and am transitioning into cars. Most of the people I know who are fans of F1 have this elitist attitude and most frustrating of all is they have no idea what they are talking about. If you wanted to get technical about the skills needed to perform in an Indycar vs F1 and are trying to say that F1 requires more skill, you're kidding yourself. You have no frame of reference to say what you're saying. This argument could go on for so long its ridiculous. For me when you look at the budget between a top performing Indycar team and a top F1 team the difference in budgets doesn't justify the disparity in performance that all the F1 fans want to brag about. An Indycar is still a 700hp openwheeled racer car with no power steering that takes a high proficiency of racing skill and car control to pilot. But all the guys who race them are somehow second rate drivers because all the professional bloggers know better? Give me a break. Indycar is invisible because of management mistakes. In reality they have a on track product that is gold. If people would watch the F^&*ing racing and stop naysaying they would see that it speaks for itself.

Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) > Christopher Tarhan 03/23/2014 at 01:34

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I make it very simple: it's not about the skills, it's about exposure.

I'm quite sure there are other racing series that are much more difficult than IndyCar, yet they don't get the same exposure Indy does. People around the world watch F1, because it's the biggest series de facto and most of the time that's all they can watch.

It has nothing to do with the racing itself.

Destructive Tester > Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) 03/24/2014 at 18:24

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Does this mean that there may have been a conspiracy to keep Senna from leaving F1 and the powers-that-be made an example out of him?!

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) 03/24/2014 at 19:15

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I'd like IndyCar to come back to Australia, I doubt Senna would have had a dramatic effect on the series if he switched to it though. Yeah he probably would have won championships, but I don't think it's decline on the global stage could have been prevented by one man.

Though, the improvement of safety measures and the credibility of the GP Drivers Association had after Senna's death are almost immeasurable. We might have had to wait till someone else died before serious changes were made.

DCrants > Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) 03/24/2014 at 21:47

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This was more about Senna's decision on whether or not to take a sabbatical from F1 for a year. He was very iffy about racing F1 in 1993 (the video above was from December 1992). Even after agreeing to race for McLaren, he only raced on a race-by-race basis for almost the entire year. He was incredibly frustrated at not being able to sign with Williams due to contract stipulations in Prost's contract with the team and he realized the only F1 option of significance for him was to race in the 3rd best car on the grid in the McLaren (1st being Williams, 2nd being Benetton which used a superior Ford engine to the one used in the McLaren). If he ultimately decided not to do F1 for a season, he could keep sharp by racing in this series against Mansell and others.

That said, the whole thing was more than likely a negotiating tactic to force McLaren's hand so that they would accept his per race salary. After Senna had 2 wins and a 2nd place through the first 3 races of the 1993 season, I'm sure he discounted any concept of not completing the full F1 calendar...a season in which, had he not had mechanical failures in 3 or 4 races, Senna could have potentially beaten out Prost (in a far superior Williams) for the WDC.

GearHeadfromBrazil > Christopher Tarhan 03/24/2014 at 22:20

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I totally agree with you in the level of skills required to drive each car. They are similar, but no equal. Yet, Indy car legends of today could do a change in the series and still run just fine in F1.

What I disagree with you is about the Indycar package.

This shitload of street circuits is ridiculous. They don't provide any sort of real racing. It is just horrible to watch on TV.

The lack of develpment and manufactures (engine, chassi, tires, fuels) just make it a big spec series. The only Indycar races that I watch are Sao Paulo and the Indy 500. After that, I prefer to watch any GP2 or GP3 race any day of the week because they are spec series with races at more interesting tracks and with better fights.

Kate's Dirty Sister > Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) 03/24/2014 at 22:29

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Indycar was far from invisble back then.

Steven Phillips Photography > Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) 03/24/2014 at 23:06

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Can you guys imagine a series with Senna, Zanardi, Mansell, AND Montoya?

Senna vs. Montoya would have just been incredible.

Cue hour long balls out highlight reel:

kent-skinner > Christopher Tarhan 03/24/2014 at 23:25

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They should have listened to you when they fucked it all up and chased away the fans. They *had* a great series. I watched all the races, I went to the West Coast races. I got friends to watch races.

Then the mouth-breathers took over. It's hard to take it seriously when AJ Foyt is ranting and screaming about 'merikan kids not having a chance, and ride buying Brazilonairs. That's just jingoistic bullshit, no matter how you spin it. TG could have started a series for kids and we would *own* F1 at this point. But no, he took his ball and went home.

When you chase away the fans, you chase away the money, and then you have... IndyCar. Now, IndyCar is a spec series that is known for low talent (compared to top tier series outside the US), cheap sponsors and lack of fans. Why should I watch it? Seriously. Why? An emphasis on ovals (boring to me) and slow shitty cars with drivers I've never heard of.

If I'm going to watch slow shitty car with unknown drivers, I'll go to a local Lemons race.

merlyn11a > Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) 03/25/2014 at 00:02

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Well, the main problem with CART was USAC, the Georges and that Indy/Midwestern mentality which really wanted to do the roundy-round to dominate. It sort of was limiting and short-visioned in order to get the USAC guys more power. Definitely a mistake to let the series split as no one won and everyone lost. But you'll never see the Georges own up to that giant diarrhea of stupidity. It would have been cool to see Senna there; good ol' Nige already came through and plenty of F1 hands before that. The series was coming around as a threat to F1 as a watchable and goto-able thing until the split. A lot of talent and very accessible. F1 was lucky Tony George did what he did......

Francisco > Christopher Tarhan 03/25/2014 at 00:21

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I totally agree with you. This guy loves to bash Indycar and I don't know why.

speeddemon807 > Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) 03/25/2014 at 00:31

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As the story goes, Senna was without a deal with McLaren and the departure of Honda really didn't help matters for him between 1992 and 1993. Would have been cool is Senna joined the CART Indycar Series but went back to McLaren on a race by race contract in which he finished 2nd in the championship that year with a crappy car. Mansell, Senna, Fittapaldi, Andrettis and others back in 1993 in the Cart Series is stacked.

Adam > Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) 03/25/2014 at 00:34

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Does anyone else feel banning Tobacco sponsorship has really killed racing? They were heavily involved on the money side and the racing was awesome then. I love Indy cars in the 90's and F1 for that matter.

Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) > Adam 03/25/2014 at 01:08

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I have a huge Marlboro logo as my cellphone wallpaper, although I never smoked a puff of cigarette in my life. I just love how it looks and it reminds me of damn good racecars.

Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) > speeddemon807 03/25/2014 at 01:10

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That's all well-known, still, I hardly doubt there wouldn't been a single team that could offer him a contract in F1.

Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) > Kate's Dirty Sister 03/25/2014 at 01:11

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Read it again, because that's exactly what I wrote.

Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) > Steven Phillips Photography 03/25/2014 at 01:11

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F****IN' RAIKKÖNNEN!!!

Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) > DCrants 03/25/2014 at 01:14

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I'm quite sure he could find a seat in F1 if he wanted to, just not a winning car. The question exactly that I'm imposing is that whether he was so determined to win that he was ready to sacrafice his F1 career for a possible winning-streak in IndyCar.

Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) > Destructive Tester 03/25/2014 at 01:15

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Chemtrail, no question about it.

tifosi3317 > Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) 03/25/2014 at 07:19

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Right after the test Senna apparently spoke to Roger Penske and priced himself way out of his range according to Autoweek (I think). I feel if Penske would have paid him what he wanted he might have done Indycars for year or two then went back.

Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) > DCrants 03/25/2014 at 08:04

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That's a good argument.

996C2 > Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) 03/25/2014 at 09:12

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- Senna was pissed off at Ron, feeling he wasn't working hard enough to secure a good engine for the 93 season.

- Marlboro were unhappy with Ron because Senna was unhappy, plus Hogan wanted to buy into the team and were rebuffed by Dennis.

- Jakobi (Senna's agent) was unhappy with Ron.

Are we seeing a trend here yet? :)

Honda had announced it was out after 1992. Ron didn't want to pay Renault the money they were asking, (typical Ron). Senna turned down $22M to go to Ferrari. (no one knows why).

The Lambo engine Ron threw in the back of the 92 chassis for him to test was a piece of crap.

Ron eventually had to take a Ford that was a lower spec then given to Benetton which Senna used in the 93 season under in a race by race contract. In fact the 1st race of the 1993 season he didn't sign a contract to race in the event until the morning of the event in SA. From there after he raced under single one race contracts. In the history of F1 - this has never happened since and Hogan had a lot to do with allowing this. Marlboro (Hogan) supported Senna and had never really gotten along with Ron Dennis.

So lets review. He's having a terrible time deciding what to do in F1. Prost locks him out of Renault power (contract provision) with Team Renault. So with all these issues in F1 Senna STILL decides to drive in F1 in the 1993 and turn down Penske?

The test was a wake up call and message sent to Ron and Bernie - that this guy could leave F1. Hogan played a part here in this little charade by making some phone calls. Emerson's part in this test has always been played up here when in fact the go ahead went through John Hogan first and the life insurance premium was paid out of Marlboro's North American budget in order for Senna to get into the car at Firebird. And unusually for Penske - no contract was signed between Senna and the team for him to test the car. Most teams will not allow a test unless a contact is signed giving the team the first right of refusal if you decide to race in their series. Hogan made sure there was no signature to any paper when he stepped into that car.

Yeah, I'd say he was NEVER serious about leaving F1 for CART.

Read the history books people - its all there or you wouldn't be asking these questions. I recommend; ' Aryton Senna: Beyond Pefection by Pierre Menard and Jacques Vassal

Axis Of Oversteer > Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) 03/25/2014 at 10:13

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I'd say, not a chance. Senna was well aware Indycar was a big step down from F1 (yes, even then) and in no way was he a "big fish in a small pond" type. Nope, more of a chance he would have gone back to karting, for fun.

ams1069 > beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard 03/25/2014 at 10:57

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Senna wasn't the only one talking about switching to Indycar at that time. I recall Micheal Schumaker mentioning it after the 1994? plank incident. Also Honda left F1 in 1992 to start in indycar in 1994. The problem with Mansell/Honda's defection and Senna's test is that it caused Bernie Ecclestone to view Indycar as a threat. Was it Bernie Ecclestone that convinced Tony George to start the IRL as an all oval series (one that would not compete with F1)? They certainly worked together in that timeframe. Once the damage was done and American open wheel racing was on life support, the Tony George/Bernie Ecclestone partnership ended. There are several other examples that point to an orchestrated take down of indycar/champcar but I won't go into it here.

chicagoE36 > Steven Phillips Photography 03/25/2014 at 11:54

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Thanks for that. I've never seen it before.

maveric101 > Christopher Tarhan 03/25/2014 at 13:15

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Way to attack a guy for a bunch of things he never said. Calm down.

"For me when you look at the budget between a top performing Indycar team and a top F1 team the difference in budgets doesn't justify the disparity in performance that all the F1 fans want to brag about."

Well no shit. And a P1 isn't 10x faster than a GT-R.

maveric101 > Francisco 03/25/2014 at 13:18

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Where's the "bashing?"

C-Rod > Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) 04/17/2014 at 13:20

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Sometimes people make decisions for reasons other than money. Senna notoriously disliked the politics of F1, and who can blame him? Maybe he was just tired of the BS and was considering getting out to a "purer" racing series, if not as prestigious of one.